No, you haven't been paying attention to what I said. I don't think anyone should accept working for Muhammed bin Salman. Working for him would be absolutely terrible and a moral trap, BUT SO IS WORKING FOR ANY CORPORATION. My comment was not just in response to exodus, either. It was also in response to other comments here, like yours, about not buying from SNK anymore. Buying stuff from Muhammad bin Salman would be absolutely terrible and a moral trap, BUT SO IS BUYING STUFF FROM ANY CORPORATION. This is not just because of some @CapitalismIsEvil bullshit, it's because all of your economic interactions literally benefit Muhammad bin Salman and other people exactly him, regardless of whether their names are attached to the companies. You know this just as well as I do and the only reason you don't make the exact same connection is that you've internalized the terms of a bargain with your conscience in which you agree not to think about the how your actions support these people and their system. I make that bargain, too, but I cannot accept its terms.

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Posted by Cuckness Unto Death and Opa Opa on December 03, 2020 at 14:26:44 EST in reply to There’s nothing imaginary about feeling like shit for taking a paycheck from a company known to be controlled by one of the worst dudes living on planet Earth, which is the situation exodus would be in if he didn’t abandon whatever project I’m sure he’s been thinking about since the Samurai collection finished up. Your emotional distance from the situation is perhaps easier given your physical distance from the situation. Would you take $20 to mow his lawn if you just saw him push a button that launched a missile into a hospital? Maybe you would because, after all, it wouldn’t bring the hospital back. Not everyone is so enlightened though. Frankly this situation is very shitty but also very simple. I wouldn’t like walking away from them, as a customer or a consultant, but it wouldn’t be a difficult choice at all. (n/t) from SignOfZeta.

No, you haven't been paying attention to what I said. I don't think anyone should accept working for Muhammed bin Salman. Working for him would be absolutely terrible and a moral trap, BUT SO IS WORKING FOR ANY CORPORATION. My comment was not just in response to exodus, either. It was also in response to other comments here, like yours, about not buying from SNK anymore. Buying stuff from Muhammad bin Salman would be absolutely terrible and a moral trap, BUT SO IS BUYING STUFF FROM ANY CORPORATION. This is not just because of some @CapitalismIsEvil bullshit, it's because all of your economic interactions literally benefit Muhammad bin Salman and other people exactly him, regardless of whether their names are attached to the companies. You know this just as well as I do and the only reason you don't make the exact same connection is that you've internalized the terms of a bargain with your conscience in which you agree not to think about the how your actions support these people and their system. I make that bargain, too, but I cannot accept its terms.

n/t

Follow Ups:

I think exodus and Zeta won't appreciate your distinction until they've delved deep into the Motörhead discography and steeped themselves in many hours of Lemmy interviews on Youtube. It'll be a long process. There was a thread probably 15 years ago where the same argument played out over the morality of shopping at Target vs. Walmart. You can guess exactly how the ideologies diverged on that one.

(substance J)

(14:24:19 12/05/20 EST)

I don’t think that was a similar argument...but you are right, I fail to recognize the distinction and it’s mainly because man cannot live on the word of God alone. I see little that is actionable in all his theory.

(SignOfZeta)

(16:55:27 12/07/20 EST)

What you consider "actionable" depends so much on how you view your actions and your ethical relationship to the world. If you think you're a pretty great person, with forceful convictions that you stick to, then you're probably not going to be willing to sacrifice much of your convenience to do better. Afterall, you're already doing so much. On the other hand, when you see more clearly the compromises you make to your ideals every single day and feel all the guilt of that failure, then you'll find yourself more and more willing to take actions. You can't understand this in advance, so your judgements now about what is actionable are just not relevant. It has to start with an honest assessment of yourself. There's nothing abstract or theoretical about this. It's devestatingly practical.

(Lieas and Alibies and Opa Opa)

(19:10:10 12/07/20 EST)

I think I don't really understand what you're talking about because I am directly inconveniencing myself (monetarily) by not working with SNK anymore. Of course the ultimate rejection would be to live outside the system entirely but that's not a practical possibility when you have ailing parents with no incomes and are born into a society et cetera. you can get all the way down to the metal and say I should go off to farm by myself and affect/take care of nobody else but that doesn't feel like a real argument to me. You seemed to be saying that my sacrifice of convenience was meaningless, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this last bit.

(exodus)