That's why it's only "slightly more realistic" ;)

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Posted by bluefour on May 06, 2020 at 11:47:55 EST in reply to CFC would require Capcom's involvement though, wouldn't it? (n/t) from Paleface.

That's why it's only "slightly more realistic" ;)

n/t

Follow Ups:

unfortunately that's actually wildly less realistic! it took months of meetings to be able to SAY "capcom vs SNK" in the samurai shodown collection. And I think it might've gotten cut int he end.

(exodus)

(18:39:55 05/06/20 EST)

Haha haha! So is that just typical business bullshit, as in “We don’t know if we should be paying money for having this Sprite can in our movie theater or if we should be paid ourselves, better go with orange juice.” or it just something that only could have happened when SNK was in a good mood at the time for being a 1st party developer for two systems?

(SignOfZeta)

(20:52:05 05/06/20 EST)

SNK and Capcom still have really bad blood, and all the people keeping the bad blood alive still work at both companies. SNK is more interested in fixing it, but they're also in the way less advantageous position. it's just one of those things that's going to take a really long time to smooth over. And there is also the muddling of the rights situation. Like each owns some portion of the SNK vs Capcom stuff, but Capcom believes SNK didn't pull their weight in the first place, so the contract is irrelevant and should be renegotiated etc. Just a bunch of nonsense really, as far as 2020 is concerned.

(exodus)

(21:00:18 05/13/20 EST)

What's the bad blood over?

(Paleface)

(21:34:31 05/13/20 EST)

SNK went out of business in the middle of their deal. That’s probably somehow related. The Capcom games very much felt like they were made entirely by Capcom and probably were. Regardless it’s a dumb beef. Those crossover games are all greatly admired by fans of both companies (except Chaos, obviously) and whatever they are holding on to can’t mean anything compared to the insane hit that CvS2 was. People still play that game pretty hardcore, in Japan at least.

(SignOfZeta)

(21:21:08 05/14/20 EST)

Oh, I wasn't sure if exodus was saying there was some other reason beyond the crossover games.

(Paleface)

(11:27:06 05/15/20 EST)

What is a little sad about CvS2 though is that there's at least a perception that Capcom made the SNK characters weaker, on average, than their own characters; the SNK characters aren't played very much, in tournaments, as far as I've seen--at least, not by the players who go far. And then, way too much Sagat, Blanka, Dictator, Cammy. For spectating, at least, casual play is where it's at.

(Paleface)

(11:35:40 05/15/20 EST)

For my own, single-player playing, my favorite thing turned out to be random-character 1-round battles at max difficulty played through SvC's practice mode. With the ridiculous balance, and some nutty stage designs, it's pure insanity. : D Secondarily, arcade mode in CvS Pro. The AI isn't very challenging in CvS or CvS2, though--except for some of the CvS2 boss battles, of course.

(Paleface)

(11:41:28 05/15/20 EST)

Of course, the game that actually got real single-player design attention was MotM. : )

(Paleface)

(11:50:05 05/15/20 EST)

I don’t understand the way SNK characters were done. In the first game (which sucked, btw) they took about half of their moves away leaving us with characters I couldn’t even figure how to play. Then they have a code for “EX” version which have the missing moves back but others were taken away. Two shitty Kyos, two shitty Terrys. Just...why? CVS2 fixes this but Kyo is never cool or tough or fun to play. I don’t know about power but I do know the only reason I played that game is because everyone else was. Street Fighter Zero, Street Fighter 3, KOF, all are better games.

(SignOfZeta)

(21:36:23 05/19/20 EST)

Yeah CvS2 still feels like a bit of a mess; I can't think of a cross-over game that doesn't, really. Oh well MotM maybe. And the regular KOF games, but I'm not nearly old-school enough to think of those as cross-over games. For me, who has never properly learned anyone's move set, I didn't miss the missing moves in CvS--and thus I had no idea what was EX about the EX characters, so thanks for explaining that. : D

(Paleface)

(19:17:51 05/20/20 EST)

That's the thing, I don't know what idea was. If I could talk to Capcom I would say, "Hey, what was the idea..."? regarding dividing the characters in two. Did they just think that since Capcom characters usually only have three moves that they had to confine the SNK characters to that? It can't be a technical explanation, someone must have wanted more similarities in how the characters play. KOF and SNK have a rep for complex moves. There are some characters in the newer KOFs I really can't do anything with because they are near Guilty Gear in abstract weirdness but this wasn't that. This was just Terry missing two moves, and another Terry having them but missing two other moves. Its like they knew they wanted to port it to PS1 and they didn't want memory problems. :)

(SignOfZeta)

(01:49:39 05/23/20 EST)

It *could* have been with the PS1 in mind but I would guess it was probably just as you say, a design decision to bring the number of special moves in line with the Capcom characters. And in the other direction, they removed the two medium buttons from the Capcom characters--again, thinking I suppose to simplify things down to a common basis; much easier from a development point of view, and makes sense in a *way*--but only if you overlook the critical consideration that it breaks the cardinal rule of never taking anything away from the fans.

(Paleface)

(16:17:59 05/24/20 EST)

Taking two buttons away from the Capcom guys just makes the game even more Capcom. This had already been established by MvC2 eight months earlier and has stayed with all the VS games (I think, I haven’t played five of them at this point probably). These changes are weird but people clearly loved it, the same people who like 3D Street Fighter. It’s a hit. With the fighting game scene having shrunk at that point by quite a bit they had to unify the genres.

(SignOfZeta)

(21:35:18 05/24/20 EST)

CvS2 is six buttons. And are you saying Capcom fans liked CvS1 being four buttons? That strikes me as unlikely. (Or were you talking about MvC2? That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish; the Marvel games play so differently than the "traditional" SF games that I think people were probably much more willing to try different controls.)

(Paleface)

(19:33:49 05/25/20 EST)

Ah, yeah. For some reason I forgot CvS2 went back to six. That shows how long it’s been since I played that thing.

(SignOfZeta)

(15:04:17 05/27/20 EST)

yeah, that kind of stuff. chaos underperformed and they felt like they made these big CvS games and SNK just made chaos and some handheld games on their failing platform. So the perception was it all benefited SNK's brand, not Capcom's.

(exodus)

(14:05:48 05/19/20 EST)

SvC: Chaos is a tragedy. MotM and CvS2 raised expectations so high that it'd be hard for SNKP to top those games, regardless of the platform. Chaos has a neat selection of characters, but that's about it. NeoGeo Battle Collisseum builds on Chaos though, and it's much more polished and fun. Capcom's own Fighting Jam ironically dropped the ball. Strange how those things work out.

(Rockman Pocket)

(17:19:03 05/19/20 EST)

Single-player-wise, NGBC's main mode kinda blows though. And its AI isn't very good--a number of SNK games around that time had that problem. (Although with NGBC, possibly that's because I wasn't playing its main mode?)

(Paleface)

(19:29:43 05/19/20 EST)

There was a guy on the Neo forum that bought Chaos as a standalone PCB, which was the only way it originally came out, for like $1100. That seems insane but really we had no idea the game would be that lame. MotM rules. I had very high hopes because I didn't like Capcom once they went to blurry VGA graphics. Most of the other later day Neo fighters, even when they were going in and out of business, were actually pretty great. Chaos is the worst of that era really, isn't it? I have Rage of Dragons and its stupid and tag and super super super juggle but its really good. So is that Power Instinct game and KOF 2003 is fantastic. Chaos is clearly unfinished. I wonder what the story is.

(SignOfZeta)

(01:56:32 05/23/20 EST)

I keep forgetting that when talking about these games you're thinking of the arcade versions whereas I'm thinking of the PS2 versions, which are a lot different.

(Paleface)

(10:53:41 05/23/20 EST)

Yeah, so in this case you’re probably talking about a better game even than I am.

(SignOfZeta)

(12:10:13 05/23/20 EST)

It would be interesting to know what all the changes are. I mostly just like the insanity of the 1-round random battles you can set up in the PS2 version's Practice mode (video example inside). If I was stuck with just Arcade mode I would have hated it because I absolutely detested fighting Goenitz as the mid-boss. ; P (The PS2 version's default graphic setting added transparency effects on fireballs and stuff, but it was a pretty minor difference, and you could toggle it back from Normal to "Arcade" to remove them.) A lot of the characters are kind of eh and the balance is quite possibly the worst ever, but thrown into a quick random battle stew it becomes sort of a fun mess. ; )

(Paleface)

(16:10:31 05/24/20 EST)

For sure. I’ve only played it in the arcade and on that one guy’s board when he later brought it to...I want to say Otakon. I want to stress how insane this was. SNK games were basically going straight from the MVS cart to my ROM folder at this point so to try and slow down the piracy they didn’t release an MVS of it. They only sold it as an entire JAMMA board. So you have to be crazy to to buy Neo to begin with, even home carts for what were I think $300 by then. You have to be twice as crazy to buy MVS arcade carts for what were like $800 I think then. But this was even more crazy because the thing had a whole Neo Geo in it as well and was well over $1000. I’m fairly certain I’m correct in these facts but it’s been a long time. Anyway, spending all that money and then just getting...SvC Chaos. Playing the hell out of it trying to get it to reveal its magic and then just realizing there isn’t any, that this is a early Beta with some finishing touches on it. Cue trombone slide...then they end up making an MVS cart of it anyway for the usual price months later so in the end you paid $100 a month more to get it ahead of the MVS. All this for a game that‘s just above bad. I’d still take it over CvS1/Pro any day. That thing really sucks. I hate that blurry Naomi look in general but that game just sucks. It sucks. CvS1/Pro sucks. Kyo looks like he’s 12. The thing sucks.

(SignOfZeta)

(22:49:59 05/24/20 EST)

Oh wow, I didn't know about the initial JAMMA SvC release! As for CvS Pro, the PS1 version is all low-res--kind of my way of getting around the split resolution thing. ; ) The downer in that game for me--aside from it being too flashy for my eyes to enjoy these days--is that Arcade mode is too easy.

(Pslrgsvr)

(19:38:55 05/25/20 EST)

somebody got slightly adjusted on their keyboard here!

(exodus)

(14:40:30 05/26/20 EST)

Yep I had left my keyboard shoved over to the left and my name started coming out funny : D

(Paleface)

(15:25:04 05/27/20 EST)

in my amateur opinion the PS2 version is way worse! I played that one first, a fair amount, and then wound up trying the arcade version at a friend's several years later and being pleasantly surprised. The PS2 one felt worse to control on top of everything else, I guess.

(exodus)

(14:26:15 05/25/20 EST)

I can’t explain it but I just don’t like playing fighting games on PS2. If Battle Coliseum was a Neo game I’d likely play the crap out of it for days but I’ve had the PS2 one forever and don’t really like it. It’s not just the Sisyphean loads, it’s something all over that thing.

(SignOfZeta)

(16:18:11 05/25/20 EST)

I'm sure the control is better in the arcade version; SNK's PS2 ports generally had a couple additional frames of input lag, at least. And PS2-era PS2 sticks were not super great.

(Paleface)

(19:42:11 05/25/20 EST)

(To be more specific about the PS2 SNK input lag thing: I meant NG-to-PS2 fighting games--and there were at least a few exceptions that I know of: KOF 2003 and Kizuna Encounter. Come to think of it I don't know that I tested SvC. ... Wait oh hey I did, and Battle Coliseum, even (not NG, just mentioning due to the branch of this thread below)--both of those were okay on input lag, actually. So nevermind that aspect of my attempted argument!)

(Paleface)

(19:48:33 05/25/20 EST)

And uh the BC branch is above, not below. Well I've done well here.

({a;efake)

(19:49:37 05/25/20 EST)

Actually wait no I'm even off about their PS2 ports having 2 frames extra in general, that's totally wrong. Igh. So no no it probably wasn't an input lag difference that you would have been feeling, unless you had a really unusual and terrible PS2 controller.

(P{slrgsvr)

(19:56:28 05/25/20 EST)

So that leaves me with just the theory that you may have had a typical-of-the-era not-arcade-perfect controller when you played the PS2 version. If you didn't then I can't account for the difference you felt--unless it was a bad TV but that's even more unlikely if this was actually back in the PS2 era. I've played PS2 SvC on the same Sanwa-equipped stick I use for KOF 2000 on my MVS and haven't noticed SvC's input feeling worse.

(Paleface)

(20:04:42 05/25/20 EST)

Oh dag! I will adjust my expectations.

(bluefour)

(21:25:43 05/06/20 EST)

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